There are a number of problems with the Mersheimer thesis on Ukraine. I think Putin used western meddling as an excuse to do what he wanted.The invasions were never a matter of necessity but of choice and accompanied by utterly ridiculous claims by Putin that he was going to de Nazify the country.Putin didn’t invade Ukraine because he thought NATO was going to invade Russia, a totally implausible scenario. He was afraid a EU - NATO Ukraine would be beyond his control which he felt was his right.Now that doesn’t mean the West behaved intelligently. It gave Putin cover for his imperial ambitions to be partially realized. Nor is what I’ve said justification for unending western backing of Ukraine. I think it was Obama who said that the Russians are always going to be more interested in Ukraine than we are. I doubt what happens in Ukraine makes much difference to the US.Russia has shown itself weak and is in no position to move further west. What I have no tolerance for is the notion that Putins conduct is essentially justifiable. No it isn’t. It’s the conduct of a nationalistic imperialist who doesn’t care how many people are killed to attain his blood and soil goals. Finally , he started this war not the west and it’s a war of choice he could have ended at anytime (although at this point he’s probably afraid to do so).
I don't deny Putin had a choice or defend his decision to invade Ukraine. I'm saying his response was predictable. I'll also point out the triggering event -- greenlighting Ukraine into NATO -- was made right after the US finished its 20-year adventure in Afghanistan. I reject claims that "he started this war not the west". The west (i.e. the US) bears a lot of the responsibility for this conflict. It never would have happened had we night shoved out a democratically elected leader. Nor would it have escalated into open war if Joe Biden hadn't been elected.
1) Ukraine may have been green lighted to join NATO but realistically it was not even close to entering and in the near future its application would have likely been vetoed by possibly by Hungary and Turkey. Further, interms of the NATO charter or treaty or whatever it’s called Ukraine was disqualified from entering NATO by the 2014 invasion and its aftermath. Your not eligible for membership if your in a disputed territory war situation.
2) Fact : Russia invaded.This was not a defensive offense as arguably the Israeli 6 day war was . Yes Putin started the war
3) If Yanucovich ( sp ?) had remained president and been willing to do a Belarus there might not have been a war and I admit that would have been better. ( I get tired of explaining that I’m not some diehard interventionist and don’t think it matters to the US what happens to Ukraine but I refuse to buy into Putins dishonest rationalizations and lies).However, a lot of the rhetoric over Yanucovichs overthrow reminds me of the rhetoric surrounding the overthrow of Mossadegh. People seem to forget,Kermit Roosevelt and the British secret service may have backed the coup but it was the Iranian military backed by the mullahs who did the deed.Likewise, Victoria Nuland and marine troopers didn’t overthrow Yanucovich , Ukrainians did and the Ukrainian public and legislature seemed perfectly happy the immediate result.
4) To say I’m not a Joe Biden fan is an understatement but I’ve never quite understood the if Joe Biden hadn’t been president there would have been no invasion argument.
#4 is key. Joe Biden changed the official US position on Ukraine and NATO. He did it almost immediately after the US pulled out of Afghanistan. This was a red line for Putin. Everyone knew it.
I am just an old lady sitting in snowy Denver reading "I think Putin used western meddling a an excuse to do what he wanted" sStatements such as this from a substack writer who probably has never seen Putin in person let alone discussed his inner most thoughts, always puzzle me. How do you know? How can you be so sure that what you THINK is something I should believe? Ah well, it is after all a man writing, most women are humble enough to realize that they have no idea what anyone is thinking - even their mates and children.
Unfortunately, the only people who can convince me of anything these days are the scammers who got me on fraud on my schwab account 6 months ago and some microsoft defender scammer who had me for 30 minutes til i figured out what was happening. so, Unless you are as good as convincing as those 13 year old kids sitting in Romania somewhere, you are out of luck,
You posted what was a very interesting link between my being scammed by13 year old Romanians and what you believed to be my pro Putinist propaganda.
The truth is, i was barely a teenager during the height of the cold war. I was about 14 during the Korean War so I learned early how to believe everything I was told by the government and the press which i devoured and hated the Chinese and North Koreans, ,
I watched every spy movie and there were dozens of them and they all showed East Germans trying to escape and being shot at the wall. I read every issue of the NYTimes even as a teenager and believed every word of their anti-Russian "propoganda"
-I was totally on board with the anti=Russian sentiment until I graduated from college and was working at a news magazine in NYC which was also totally anti-Russian. However, the news from our reporters in the field in Vietnam totally contradicted the narrative of official Washington and the lies became so obvious that I finally had to grow up and think for myself. Then the Wall came down -the Soviet Union collapsed and Russia began to make noises about joining Europe and finally sources other than the NYTimes and CBS began to appear. After the debacle that was Vietnam, we have been at war with countries I never heard of and could hardly find on a map. Sadly, I now disbelieve every word from Hillary Clinton or Lindsay Graham or almost any of the Washington elite.
Bottom line is, my friend, is that I no longer believe the official line - I no longer clap when our drones and bombs kill innocent people so our Democracy will be saved. I no longer I support every war so that those in power can get rich ala the horror of Ukraine the war I am sure you believe Putin started. - I am glad that at the end of my long life my brain is still intact so I can do the research, search out independent sources and think for myself rather than believe the real propaganda that still fills the NYTimes and even more these days the airwaves of CBS and NPR.
It's notable that your quote doesn't mention who replaced Yanukovych. After all that Zelinsky democratically defeated the "installed" Poroshenko, and Putin invading anyway is rather inconvenient for your narrative.
There are a number of problems with the Mersheimer thesis on Ukraine. I think Putin used western meddling as an excuse to do what he wanted.The invasions were never a matter of necessity but of choice and accompanied by utterly ridiculous claims by Putin that he was going to de Nazify the country.Putin didn’t invade Ukraine because he thought NATO was going to invade Russia, a totally implausible scenario. He was afraid a EU - NATO Ukraine would be beyond his control which he felt was his right.Now that doesn’t mean the West behaved intelligently. It gave Putin cover for his imperial ambitions to be partially realized. Nor is what I’ve said justification for unending western backing of Ukraine. I think it was Obama who said that the Russians are always going to be more interested in Ukraine than we are. I doubt what happens in Ukraine makes much difference to the US.Russia has shown itself weak and is in no position to move further west. What I have no tolerance for is the notion that Putins conduct is essentially justifiable. No it isn’t. It’s the conduct of a nationalistic imperialist who doesn’t care how many people are killed to attain his blood and soil goals. Finally , he started this war not the west and it’s a war of choice he could have ended at anytime (although at this point he’s probably afraid to do so).
I don't deny Putin had a choice or defend his decision to invade Ukraine. I'm saying his response was predictable. I'll also point out the triggering event -- greenlighting Ukraine into NATO -- was made right after the US finished its 20-year adventure in Afghanistan. I reject claims that "he started this war not the west". The west (i.e. the US) bears a lot of the responsibility for this conflict. It never would have happened had we night shoved out a democratically elected leader. Nor would it have escalated into open war if Joe Biden hadn't been elected.
Several problems with that response:
1) Ukraine may have been green lighted to join NATO but realistically it was not even close to entering and in the near future its application would have likely been vetoed by possibly by Hungary and Turkey. Further, interms of the NATO charter or treaty or whatever it’s called Ukraine was disqualified from entering NATO by the 2014 invasion and its aftermath. Your not eligible for membership if your in a disputed territory war situation.
2) Fact : Russia invaded.This was not a defensive offense as arguably the Israeli 6 day war was . Yes Putin started the war
3) If Yanucovich ( sp ?) had remained president and been willing to do a Belarus there might not have been a war and I admit that would have been better. ( I get tired of explaining that I’m not some diehard interventionist and don’t think it matters to the US what happens to Ukraine but I refuse to buy into Putins dishonest rationalizations and lies).However, a lot of the rhetoric over Yanucovichs overthrow reminds me of the rhetoric surrounding the overthrow of Mossadegh. People seem to forget,Kermit Roosevelt and the British secret service may have backed the coup but it was the Iranian military backed by the mullahs who did the deed.Likewise, Victoria Nuland and marine troopers didn’t overthrow Yanucovich , Ukrainians did and the Ukrainian public and legislature seemed perfectly happy the immediate result.
4) To say I’m not a Joe Biden fan is an understatement but I’ve never quite understood the if Joe Biden hadn’t been president there would have been no invasion argument.
#4 is key. Joe Biden changed the official US position on Ukraine and NATO. He did it almost immediately after the US pulled out of Afghanistan. This was a red line for Putin. Everyone knew it.
I am just an old lady sitting in snowy Denver reading "I think Putin used western meddling a an excuse to do what he wanted" sStatements such as this from a substack writer who probably has never seen Putin in person let alone discussed his inner most thoughts, always puzzle me. How do you know? How can you be so sure that what you THINK is something I should believe? Ah well, it is after all a man writing, most women are humble enough to realize that they have no idea what anyone is thinking - even their mates and children.
If only I’d known you were out there, I would have made special effort to persuade you!
Unfortunately, the only people who can convince me of anything these days are the scammers who got me on fraud on my schwab account 6 months ago and some microsoft defender scammer who had me for 30 minutes til i figured out what was happening. so, Unless you are as good as convincing as those 13 year old kids sitting in Romania somewhere, you are out of luck,
Romanians always top me!
Well, that would explain why you also fall for Putinist propaganda.
You posted what was a very interesting link between my being scammed by13 year old Romanians and what you believed to be my pro Putinist propaganda.
The truth is, i was barely a teenager during the height of the cold war. I was about 14 during the Korean War so I learned early how to believe everything I was told by the government and the press which i devoured and hated the Chinese and North Koreans, ,
I watched every spy movie and there were dozens of them and they all showed East Germans trying to escape and being shot at the wall. I read every issue of the NYTimes even as a teenager and believed every word of their anti-Russian "propoganda"
-I was totally on board with the anti=Russian sentiment until I graduated from college and was working at a news magazine in NYC which was also totally anti-Russian. However, the news from our reporters in the field in Vietnam totally contradicted the narrative of official Washington and the lies became so obvious that I finally had to grow up and think for myself. Then the Wall came down -the Soviet Union collapsed and Russia began to make noises about joining Europe and finally sources other than the NYTimes and CBS began to appear. After the debacle that was Vietnam, we have been at war with countries I never heard of and could hardly find on a map. Sadly, I now disbelieve every word from Hillary Clinton or Lindsay Graham or almost any of the Washington elite.
Bottom line is, my friend, is that I no longer believe the official line - I no longer clap when our drones and bombs kill innocent people so our Democracy will be saved. I no longer I support every war so that those in power can get rich ala the horror of Ukraine the war I am sure you believe Putin started. - I am glad that at the end of my long life my brain is still intact so I can do the research, search out independent sources and think for myself rather than believe the real propaganda that still fills the NYTimes and even more these days the airwaves of CBS and NPR.
.
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> we have been at war with countries I never heard of and could hardly find on a map.
This says more about you than it does about our foreign policy.
> I am glad that at the end of my long life my brain is still intact so I can do the research, search out independent sources and think for myself
Sounds like your brain was never able to think for itself to begin with.
It's notable that your quote doesn't mention who replaced Yanukovych. After all that Zelinsky democratically defeated the "installed" Poroshenko, and Putin invading anyway is rather inconvenient for your narrative.